BBC World Service:
Proposed transfer of Indian military helicopters to Burma has upset the human rights organization Amnesty International which says the deal threatens the European Union's arm embargo on Burma. According to a report by a group of NGOs including Amnesty the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) is manufactured in India, but couldn't be operational without vital components from EU states. European Union of course have an arms embargo in place on Burma. Amnesty International's Helen Hughs said the proposed sale/sell is worrying.
Amnesty International's Helen Hughs:
We're particularly concerned because of the human rights record of Myanmar, and particularly the violations are committed by the army there in areas of conflict in counterinsurgency operations. A lot of those violations relate to you know sort of forced displacement and forced disappearance, rape and torture. Based on that kind of calculation of risk, this transfer shouldn't be going ahead because there is a real danger that these could be used by the Army to support committing serious violations.
BBC World Service:
Dr. Zarni is a Burma specialist at Queen's College (transcriber's remark – should be "Queen Elizabeth House"), Oxford. And he has been giving us his views on Amnesty's concerns.
Zarni:
I agree with the moral sentiment behind Amnesty's objection. But this is not just simply a human rights issue although it is a legitimately human rights issue. India as you know is in competition with China over influence over the Burmese regime. So, it is very, very difficult for a country like India to forego its national security and economic interests when it comes to a neighboring country – Burma. And the other point is India itself has an armed insurgency in its North East provinces. It shares over 1,000 miles long border with Burma. There is a growing tighter military and security cooperation between Burma and India. So that needs to be taken into account when we try to address the issue of India's latest proposal for arms sale to Burma.
BBC World Service:
So, you are saying really there is not much that can be done.
Zarni:
Well, I think EU countries should go back and look at how tightly the arms embargo language is. As far as the Burmese military, I don't really think they need more arms for their survival. Maybe India in a way is outsourcing their security operations to Burma because Notheast armed resistance groups easily slip away into Burmese territories.
BBC World Service:
You are in favor of trying to maintain an arms embargo against Burma, but as I understand it you are against other kinds of economic embargoes. Why is that?
Zarni:
The thing is this is one of the poorest countries in the world. And the West has maintained over a decade of economic embargo. There is no such thing as hungry generals, but only hungry people. If you are trying to cripple the economy that is already ailing over the past 45 years because of the military rule and economic mismanagement you end up punishing the people who are supposed to benefit politically from the well-meaning, but misguided economic sanctions.
BBC World Service:
So, you are saying ordinary people in Burma are suffering directly as a result of Western sanctions directed against the Burmese government.
Zarni:
Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't say Western sanctions alone accounts for the growing poverty, malnutrition and all that that the Burmese people are facing. But definitely when you look at the international media climate that has been created as a result of exceptionalizing a country like Burma … There are other countries with similar situations. Natural resource rich. Post-Colonial. Multi-ethnic internal armed conflict and also repression. While the aim and objective of the sanctions is legitimate you have to look at the impact on the ground. If you are trying to discourage trade and investment, as well as tourism then people are the ones who will suffer. They need jobs. They have to feed their families. They have to send their aging parents to hospitals. You just cripple their ability to feed themselves. The generals are smiling. They are even buying arms from India. China.
BBC World Service:
You mentioned China. Of course, these two Asian giants are engaged in competitive wooing of Burma mainly because of its very rich gas reserves. Doesn't that help prop the regime up there though? It goes against what you are saying about trying to impose economic sanctions.
Zarni:
Both India and China share long, long borders with Burma. They are also consuming (Burma's) natural resources – natural gas, oil, forest products, agricultural products, And they are not going to back away simply because some of us who are living in the West tell them to on grounds of moral disagreement.
BBC World Service:
Would you say sanctions regime has been counterproductive. If Burma were to be flooded with investment and Western tourism do you think that might loosen the grip the generals keep on the country?
Zarni:
Absolutely. You have gotta look at this issue as a way to empower people economically. If you are hungry even if you want the people to fight back politically and otherwise against this regime they'd be too busy struggling for their own survival – economic survival. Poor people don't necessarily make good revolutionaries.
BBC World Service:
That was Zarni, former (Burmese) activist and now an academic at Queen (Elizabeth House), Oxford.
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