By CBC Radio | March 31, 2021
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What can the world do about the bloody crackdown in Myanmar? We talk to Tom Andrews, the UN special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Myanmar, and Maung Zarni, an activist and founder of Forces of Renewal Southeast Asia, a group advocating for democracy in the region.
Aired: March 31, 2021
Transcript:
Calls for global action on bloodshed in Myanmar
Guests: Tom Andrews, Maung Zarni
MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".
MATT GALLOWAY: Myanmar has been wracked by violence since a military coup in February. Now that violence has taken a new and more ominous turn. The military is carrying out air raids against civilians. Some have tried to flee across the border to Thailand, but the government there has pushed them back. And the bloodshed they are trying to escape escalated during the weekend.
[lots of bangs and chatter]
MATT GALLOWAY: Those are sounds from the streets as the military opened fire on protesters near Yangon. More than 100 people were killed, bringing the death toll since the coup started to over 500. Tom Andrews is the UN special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Myanmar. Tom Andrews, good morning.
TOM ANDREWS: Good morning, Matt.
MATT GALLOWAY: Your role as special rapporteur means that you are the fact-finder for the U.N. in Myanmar. What is happening in that country now?
TOM ANDREWS: Well, Matt, it's just getting worse and worse by the day. We had another 15 people, at least, killed yesterday. We now know that over 500 are dead. At least 30 of them are children. We expect that death toll to rise because several people yesterday were severely injured. We don't expect them to survive their injuries. So things are bad. They're getting worse.
MATT GALLOWAY: After the killing of more than 100 people by the military on the weekend, you issued a statement that ended with a plea. These are your words: "The people of Myanmar need the world's support. Words are not enough. It is past time for robust, co-ordinated action." What action do you want to see now?
TOM ANDREWS: Well, the Security Council is meeting this morning in New York, and they have Myanmar on the agenda. The ideal situation would be for them to act, to establish tough, strong, co-ordinated sanctions, cut the revenue and the... and all the weapons flowing into Myanmar right now. Cut revenue that's an access to revenue from businesses that are doing business in Myanmar and the businesses in Myanmar and their conglomerates. And then refer the case to the International Criminal Court, start immediately with investigations and prosecutions of what I think is just increasingly clear that these are crimes against humanity being committed. All those things can happen either through the actions of the UN security Council when they meet today. Short of that, countries could gather together, co-ordinate their efforts together and work as a co-ordinated whole of countries who are willing to stand up for the people of Myanmar.
MATT GALLOWAY: If you believe that crimes against humanity are being committed and this is happening in real time, in front of our eyes, why hasn't there been more significant action already from the international community?
TOM ANDREWS: Matt, I don't know. I don't know. I think that the case for strong, co-ordinated action could not be more clear, could not be more compelling. You know, we've heard words of condemnation. In fact, just the other day, the secretary general said that what is what is needed now is, in his words, a firm, unified, resolute international response. That is exactly right. But we have yet to see that firm, resolute international response.
MATT GALLOWAY: Sorry, help me understand that. You say you don't know. But I mean, this is... you've said that these are crimes against humanity. Why is it that the international community would not take more decisive action?
TOM ANDREWS: Again, I don't know. What I do know is that increasingly the international community is responding, they're taking steps. Just the other day, the U.S. stopped adhering to a trade pact established in 2013. A few days before that, they established sanctions on not just individuals in the military, but their military businesses and their conglomerates. There are steps being taken in the right direction, but they're not co-ordinated steps. They're not linked. We have over 40 different varieties of sanctions, for example. We need to co-ordinate them, connect them. Now, we've had a call from the ASEAN countries, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, with Indonesia in the lead, saying we need an emergency summit to address this crisis. I think that's a great opportunity for countries to gather together with the neighbours of Myanmar and establish this very firm, clear, co-ordinated sanctions regime. It hasn't happened yet, but we're pushing as hard as we can for this kind of action to be taken to.
MATT GALLOWAY: The UN security Council is touted as a powerful body that can take action in these types of crises. But we know from past experience that some of the key players at that table, specifically Russia and China, often will not take action. Is it possible for the Security Council to overcome these impasses?
TOM ANDREWS: Well, it is, Matt, but they have to try in order to overcome them. And I would... and I would like, and I know leaders of the civil disobedience movement and representatives of the elected leadership in Myanmar are calling for action. Now, of course, you put your finger on it. We always face the prospect of a veto from China or Russia, or both. And that has delayed or actually stopped attempts at votes in the Security Council. I think what should happen, frankly, is that there should be a very clear measure put on the floor of the Security Council, let everyone stand up and be counted one way or another. That's their job. And if anyone wants to veto or vote against it, OK, that's their right. But then we know who they are, we know why they've taken that action, and then we can then, the rest of the world who wants to stand with the people of Myanmar, can move on and do that. I think that the problem here is... is that the fact that there could be resistance has become an excuse for inaction.
MATT GALLOWAY: And so in that... in the face of that inaction and facing the prospect of a veto, how relevant is the Security Council?
TOM ANDREWS: Well, in this case, not very. They're getting briefings. They're making statements. They have yet to even condemn the coup. They've condemned the violence, but not the coup. So they are increasingly irrelevant when it comes to taking concrete, specific action that I think is necessary.
MATT GALLOWAY: That's a pretty damning statement from the UN special rapporteur.
TOM ANDREWS: Well, I'll tell you, the inaction is damning. It is extraordinarily frustrating to be communicating with people on the ground every day, hearing their frustration, their anger, their fear. I mean, this is a reign of terror going on here. We have these marauding troops now going through neighbourhoods, destroying property and then shooting randomly into people's homes. I mean, people in their homes, some sleeping. A young boy was killed literally in his father's arms. This is terror that's going on. Point blank-range killings that we've seen into the into the crowds. But now the random killings and the terrorism that's being inflicted on these neighbourhoods. This is horrible, horrible, Matt. And... and my job is to report, my job is to recommend. So I'm reporting things are horrible, they're getting worse, and my recommendation is to take action.
MATT GALLOWAY: You have a long history with countries that have undergone upheaval, countries like Cambodia and Serbia, Ukraine and Yemen. Are there parallels that you have seen in past that would offer some sort of road map to how to deal with what you are describing in Myanmar?
TOM ANDREWS: I think that from all of my experience, the key is it's focus and tenacity, starting on the ground. I think, clearly, the way this is going to ultimately be resolved for the good is in the hands of the Myanmar people, and they are showing extraordinary courage, creativity and tenacity. [chuckling] I just learned this morning that they've had to shut down the lottery. They can't run the lottery because people are boycotting it. We've had 120 of your colleagues in television and radio, state television and radio in Myanmar, have been dismissed because they've turned and joined the civil disobedience movement. It's extraordinary what's going on on the ground. But what is necessary is for those courageous people to be able to look to the international community not for a miracle but for support. And that is what they've yet to receive. And I think in these other cases, there has been, to one degree or another, engagement from the international community and support from the international community. But in all cases, it's really, really up to the people who are on the ground and fighting for their future.
MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned that the United States has stopped trade with Myanmar. Ultimately, is resolving this crisis and stopping the bloodshed is that going to fall more broadly on the shoulders of the United States?
TOM ANDREWS: I think the United States can play a critically important role, a co-ordination role. Of course, there are those in Myanmar that would like nothing better than to see the 82nd Airborne parachuting into Myanmar to save the day. That is... that is not going to happen. But what can happen is that the U.S., with its capacity for leadership, its connectivity to nations around the world, as well as its economic capacity, is really in a very important position to... to move forward. So we're encouraging the Biden administration to... to move quickly. I testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, their East Asia subcommittee, last week. The administration on that day announced a new set of sanctions on businesses. And what we're hoping is that the administration will step forward now and co-ordinate, play a leadership role in co-ordinating the efforts of countries who are willing to step up and put pressure on the regime.
MATT GALLOWAY: Just finally, before I let you go, in the days following the coup, I spoke with activists and journalists in Myanmar who in some ways predicted this, said that history has shown that the military leaders will crack down and crack down hard. What are you most concerned about? Given what you have seen and what you described, not just over the weekend but in the last 24 hours, what are you most concerned about?
TOM ANDREWS: About a bloodbath, Matt. I think this could get more and more horrible as the days go on. I think that this... this military junta has demonstrated that there's... there's no limit to its brutality. These are the same... the person leading the entire country right now was in charge of the forces engaged in the mass atrocity crimes against the Rohingya ethnic minority in 2017. This very person is now running the country. So what I fear most of all is a continued assault on the people of Myanmar and an increase, perhaps even a dramatic increase in the number of people who are injured or killed.
MATT GALLOWAY: Tom Andrews, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.
TOM ANDREWS: Thank you, Matt.
MATT GALLOWAY: Tom Andrews is UN special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Myanmar. He was in Washington, DC. While the world watches, it is the people of Myanmar who continue to suffer. Maung Zarni is a Burmese activist who now lives in the U.K. He's also one of the founders of Forces of Renewal Southeast Asia. It's a group advocating for democracy in the region. Maung Zarni, hello to you.
MAUNG ZARNI: Hello, back to you. Thank you.
MATT GALLOWAY: What do you make of what you've just heard about the UN's involvement or lack thereof in the situation unfolding in Myanmar?
MAUNG ZARNI: Well, the Burmese public opinion is... is such that we are sick of hearing the word of Security Council because we have seen Security Council fail and fail again, and it is failing now. You know, this is the body that has failed in every single world crisis of any significance. And not just in Burma, but Palestine, Yemen, Syria, in this case, in case of China and Russia, are the two evil or bad guys because they have proven themselves to be very reliable protector of the Burmese genocidal regime. But China itself is a... is a genocidal criminal state, according to U.S. State Department report on Uhigurs. And so, you know, we have a situation to look at the geopolitics broadly. The Security Council that is set up to essentially maintain peace and stability around the world. It's failing because, you know, veto powers are not discharging their responsibility responsibly.
MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you about the situation in Myanmar. I mean, the country has been under military rule before, but what is making what you're seeing right now... what's different about this moment?
MAUNG ZARNI: Well, because the National Armed Forces has morphed into, for all intents and practical purposes, nothing but an armed terrorist group. I mean, that's not, you know, a hyperbole. You know, That came straight from the Strategic Advisory Council on Myanmar, made up of two former very reputable UN fact-finders heading the UN fact-finding mission that found Myanmar to have committed genocide against Rohingya. And also from Tom Andrews' predecessor, the South Korean Professor Young-Hee Lee. They just released this statement three days ago after the military went on a killing spree, killing over a 140 people on the day that was to commemorate the anti-fascist resistance during the Second World War. And so we have a situation where, you know, the national army was behaving no different from ISIS or Daesh or Boko Haram. And here we've we've got, you know, on TikTok, the Chinese platform, soldiers, you know, openly saying we're going to rape your daughters, or we're going to use this weapon. Look at this weapon. We're going to shoot you in the head at night. So this sense of like, you know, impunity by the troops, not even concealing their identities and saying... and Tom's right, you know, the troops are marooning. It's like, you know what... you know, this is the situation on the ground. That is what distinguishes this military regime from previous waves of other coups launched by their predecessor. We have a terrorist regime.
MATT GALLOWAY: Would you expect in the face of everything that has been documented by Tom and elsewhere, and what you've been describing, would you expect the citizens who have been out protesting the coup to back down if the threat of further military action is waved over their heads?
MAUNG ZARNI: No, I don't. I told BBC almost two months ago, in the early days of the protest, I think like we have a radically different society. If we have a radically different regime. The society that matches in its resolve not to be put back under the boot and be terrorized into submission. You know, this is going on for two... I mean, two months. It's still the, you know, basically headline news. I mean, this is unprecedented. We have a societal revolution, society-wide, nation-wide opposition against what they see as the existential threat. And, you know, on the 26th of February at the United Nations General Assembly, I mean, extraordinarily, the Burmese ambassador, you know, sitting ambassador, refusing to take the orders from the new regime, and calling the regime the existential threat. And so, you know that we have a situation where the military staged a coup, terrorise the people, but they have been denied a functioning state because 90 per cent of the state bureaucracy have been brought to a grinding halt by civil servants. And we've got a new generation that is so creative in opposing this regime in the most peaceful and disciplined way. So every single day, like, you know, the regime focus on killing people in one city, two cities and 40 other cities are protesting today as well. I mean, the regime brought in a CNN team using its Israeli the Canadian lobby based in Montreal. And so today the people are protesting. And the military cut electricity supplies and issued a statement to the security troops, don't kill too much, in effect.
MATT GALLOWAY: You've said that China needs to be persuaded that it's not in that country's national interest to back the military regime in Myanmar. Who is going to do that convincing?
MAUNG ZARNI: Well, I think that the Chinese will have to be, you know, persuaded themselves because, you know, we... the 40... I mean, you don't want to be the enemy of 45-million people right next door, where you have major economic interests such as 800-kilometre long natural gas and pipeline. The public is seething with rage at China because China is financing and arming, and enabling the the regime that is terrorizing the country. And so the public openly talk about blowing up Chinese pipeline. You know, that's a major alternative energy security route for the Chinese, that fear, conflict in the South China Sea might blockade their regular flow of oil from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states through the Straits of Malacca. So that is one major item that China should be concerned about. There are 59 pumping stations along the 800-kilometre long twin pipeline, and you've got 54-million people that are seething with rage. And you know how much security that this Burmese regime could provide to protect the... the pipeline. And there are also other interests as well. So it's extremely unwise and unstrategic for the Chinese communist leadership to alienate 54-million to try to keep the terrorist regime on its side to protect its economic interests. I think only the Burmese people can protect the Chinese economic and other interests, not an extremely unpopular gang of terrorists in generals uniform.
MATT GALLOWAY: Just we have a couple of minutes left. The United States, and we were talking about this with... with Tom. The State Department in the U.S. put out a release yesterday saying that they condemn the widespread violations by Burma's security forces in the strongest terms. What's the role of the United States in helping to end this?
MAUNG ZARNI: Well, the U.S. role is extremely critical. And the problem is, you know, in... in human rights situation, so even in genocidal situations, you know, the great powers do not intervene on grounds of human rights, unless like human rights, protection of human rights coalesce or are in sync with their own core strategic interest and the protection of those interests. And so I think, like once the U.S. or any other powers feels that its interests are at stake, then we will see the situation where military intervention is possible.
MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think that that's likely?
MAUNG ZARNI: At this point, not yet. We don't know. We have a situation where, you know, in the middle of Southeast Asia, one of the largest country is... is... is on the brink of a unprecedented level of civil war and mass violence. You know, we've got about 15 different armed ethnic organizations gearing to fight, and declaring their intention... intention to get involved and protect the people. We've got hundreds of hundreds of young protesters who realize that in the face of a terroristic regime, that non-violence is not going to get them very far. So they are undergoing military training. You don't want another Syria right in the middle of Southeast Asia. This is everyone's interest to prevent Burma from descending further into a serious civil war that will have spill-over crisis with refugee flows and whatnot.
MATT GALLOWAY: Maung Zarni, it's good to speak with you about this. And we will keep an eye on what is unfolding in Myanmar. Thank you very much.
MAUNG ZARNI: Thank you, Matt.
MATT GALLOWAY: Maung Zarni is a Burmese activist, founder as well of the Forces of Renewal Southeast Asia, a group that advocates for democracy in that region.
